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Holy Shit !!!
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Post Holy Shit !!! Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 1:09 am
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Wow,

I work for 30 years as a lifeguard for the Jones Beach Lifeguard Corps-somehow get a strange, not easily identified bacteria that attacks my joints (ticks suck), have to take the summer off and can't go out in the sun for 150 days because of the antibiotics, teach CPR and get a few hours in-but mostly stay away from the beach cause i don't want to feel like a visitor. In mid November check out the action on the Forum for the first time in a long time.... and all I can say is wow.

This sounds like the same crap that was running last year and the year before and the year before that. History sure does repeat.

I don't have any answers-because I have been out of it for too long and don't know the facts-but it would seem to me that if some sort of job action is looming-WE WOULD NOT WANT TO PRINT IT ON A PUBLIC FORUM THAT ALL CAN READ !

The Taylor law can be interpreted many ways. Judges have fined unions and union members in the past and have also waved fines in the past. The Executive Board would be stupid to openly discuss any job action on a website-that would just feed the fire.

I hope that the executive board is working hard to gain our admission into NYSUT and get our dues back from NYSCOPBA. I hope they are putting pressure on GOER to get it done now. I hope we can get a contract with the things we want and have wanted for so long. My top ten list goes something like this:
1. discipline procedures
2. seniority
3. pre-and post season staffing rules and a fixed date for end of season each year
4. a raise that makes up for our many years of zero
5. some back pay, at least for the years that NYSCOPBA got retro pay-we were still in that union when they gave us the shaft-we should get the same pay raises that the rest of the union was awarded.
6. open and honest negotiations with the state that are signed into record so that we can refer to that record when either side's memory fails.
7. recognition by the local and the Albany branches of the state that we do a very important job and have been doing it very well for many years.
8. equipment and uniforms that fit, work well, last for the whole season and are up to date.
9. procedures for radio use, rescue equipment repair and update (before things break-be proactive)
10. treated like the professionals that we are

Anyway, it sad to see the same bickering back and forth. We will never have everyone on the same page-but we should all be working for the same goals.

As a past Executive Board member, I can tell you that it is not easy working with so many layers of interested parties. The state is against us and better equipped to fight (most of the rules are weighted to give the state an advantage), the water safety office has its agenda, captains have their agenda, some lifeguards want to work and be left alone, some want blood for past inequities, some want to stir up the pot, and many don't give a fuck. All we can do is fight the fight, as well as we can. But we have to be careful and not split up, splinter or shoot ourselves in the foot with this pissing contest that comes up every fall and spring.

I have replied to many posts on this site in the past and had epic battles with Mr. Hirten. My opinions about him are well known. I wish he would just go away-trouble always follows him. But he is in this thing and has a right to say what he wants-just like the rest of us do. I just wonder why would such a well informed, in the know type of guy post our secret ideas in a public forum and stir up the pot yet again. If he is posting it here then the state has read it and will be ready for our surprise action.

These ideas should be presented at the BRA meetings-closed door meetings. We only have the upper hand if the state is not ready to respond to our possible actions. When we stayed out in the parking lot many years ago-did not take the retest, we won. The negotiating team was whisked away and a deal was brokered. We all took the test and things were happy for a while. We did not let the state know what we were doing ahead of time, we were not seen as a split unit-fighting ourselves and calling our union leaders names. We heard the plan in the lot-acted as one and won. If I remember correctly only one or two guards took the test. Only one or two of the crew were selfish enough to break rank and swim. We were a very strong unit then. And our union leaders planned this stay out for months without the states knowledge -a surprise. Yippee!!!

Now is the time to be strong like that again. We need to show a unified face to the state. We need to pressure GOER into action because we are 500 strong (1200 if you count all of the state guards)and determined to get what is due us and be treated as professionals. We need to plan and get into action when called upon. We need to be supportive of our elected officers and if they fail us-we need to let them know what they have done (or not done) that angers us. But we need to be discrete and keep our unity intact. If this board is unable to get things done-we will elect a new group this coming summer and make sure we have people on that board that understand the members needs. But we can never be so self serving to think that everyone thinks with one voice, that everyone thinks like you do.

With almost 500 lifeguards, from 17 to 70+, we don't have one voice we have 500. It is our job to hear all of those voices and find common ground and work to get the best package possible. Remember it is always a negotiation, we will have to negotiate among ourselves to put a package together. Then we negotiate with the state to get a package both sides can live with.

The state will claim they are broke-they are trying to re-negotiate with unions right now. Asking for give backs and a week of work without pay. They are threatening that it will only get worse-they are trying to get financial support of state parks through local patronage and a "this hwy is kept clean by"....sort of plan. It is a bad time to be in limbo. The state is not going to see us as a high priority. They figure that summer is a long way off . They have no need to rush.

That means that we have tom be strong-stay on task-be discrete-keep dirty laundry hidden, and for god's sake don't listen to Mr. Hirten or tell him anything that you don't want his brother in law or best buddy in water safety office to know. He always stirs things up and agitates. Even if his ideas sound good---why is he posting them for public view? He is not a stupid man. He must know that you don't give your secret moves away this early in the game.

Please be aware that he might have his own agenda and that his past has always caused us trouble.

Please go away Mr. Hirten, just go away !!!


Sorry for the long post-but it has been a long time and I needed to rant.
Post Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:09 am
Guest
Frank;
The UNION section of this Forum is a private members only section. Right now there are 187 registered lifeguards that have access. I guess there might be some "moles" out there secretly watching our writings, but hey what do we have to hide? I think it might be actually a good thing to advertise that we're not happy with the current situation and we're ready to explore actions to address that. A group letter to the powers that be might be in order. Just a thought. I know some of our members feel we're fairly compensated for what we do, and the 2002-2008 pay freeze isn't anything to get angry over.
I really never understood the Union position of keeping everything SECRET? I've been a member of the UFA firefighters union for over 18 years and was always well informed of everything that was going on there, plus any major issues were always written up in the newspaper.
How do they handle things with the teachers? Are you kept informed on what's going on? Do they discuss the issues among the members?
Keep watching the Watchman; Rooney
Post Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:59 pm
Guest
Jim,
since the teachers union is also under the taylor law, we are very careful about what is public and what the public knows. We are well informed by our union reps about the major issues, and we have survey forms and meetings that allow the membership to speak up about issues. But a big part of negotiating with our Board of Ed and Super is being well prepared and only letting the other side know what our plans are-when the time is right.

A well planned action can only work if the other side is not ready. For example-during verse terse and problematic contract negotiations a few years back-we planned an afternoon picket of all our elementary schools by the HS and MS staff. In my district we have only a few buses-most of the kids walk or are picked up by the parents. When our board president drove by and saw all of us out there with picket signs, he had a fit. We were able to keep our action under wraps and he was unprepared for all the questions that the parents asked him. It was so effective that we went back to the table that night and had an agreement within a few days. He knew, at that point, that we were serious and as one-we had solidarity and he knew that they would not be able to break our members.

If we went around announcing our small show of force-he would have pre-pared a statement or info packet that could have lessened our effect. The public was on our side because we were together as one, well organized, well attended, professional and most of all because the other side had no defense prepared.

Also, and this is important, we had strong union leadership that never put us in a situation where we could be fined or fired. We followed the law, we taught the students and never let our anger and frustration cause us to do anything unprofessional. We were able to negotiate with strength because we never put the district or students at risk. The other side looked like the loose cannons because they let their anger at being caught off guard make them look unprofessional. the public was swayed to our side by our dedication to our jobs, the solidarity of our numbers and the reasonable request we were asking for.

We also had a Hirten like figure in our ranks-seems every organization does. But that person was not able to sway our members because our union leadership was careful to hold information when necessary. They gave us our marching and picket orders a few minutes before the event. They told us to be ready to meet after school that day, but never told us that it was a picket line event. They told us it was important and our attendance was needed. most of showed up and were happy to be there. Our leadership knew that our MOLE would inform the other side and we would not gain the impact that we had-if they were ready for it. They printed up signs, they had t-shirts ready for us and they had a statement that we were told to say if anyone asked us what was going on. They controlled the message and the timing.

So, in conclusion. I would like it if we had more information, but I also understand the need to play it close to the vest. I would also like it if we didn't fight so much in public. even if this sight is only viewable by the guards-info gets out and worse the in-fighting makes the members nervous. If we don't like what the current board does-we vote in a new one next summer. If we need more info-we should go to the meetings or request a private meeting with a board member. I have had much success in getting information by just calling or emailing Bruce or Tom. Sometimes they tell me I just need to be patient and they can tell me more at a later date-sometimes they ask me to help out, sometimes they don't know. But I trust that they are looking out for me and for us as a whole.

I know that this seems repetitive, but every board that I have worked with had our best interests in mind. Some were better at staying on task or communicating with the members than others, ,but all of them thought they were doing the right thing for the Corps. I have has some battles with the boards i work on-but they were in private-we also showed solidarity in public.

In this shitty economical climate, with a Governor that is trying to cut everything, I don't think we are going to get much money back or much of a big raise. I hope we do and have plans for the retro check-if it comes, but I don't think the timing of everything is in our favor. The talk about job action this and don't sign-in that-is counter productive. The State will have an alternate plan if we make the beaches unsafe-CLOSE EM DOWN. It would save them a buck anyway. I don't see the point in threateneing an illegal job action at this point in time.

think we do have to wait and see what happens with NYSUT, research what options we have to get back our NYSCOPBA dues and prevent them from being taken next year if we are still not out of their clutches. We should be planning for all options-but not you and me and Santiago and Hirten and Groner and Kaplan on t he web. We should be planning as a union, in closed door meetings of the Executive Board, the lawyers and NYSUT/UUP. They will tell us what we need to know.

be good
Post Re: Holy Shit !!! Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:55 am
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Frank;
It's nice to know your school district has a strong Union that also has a contract and good leadership. I guess since you work at RM 4/5 and get periodic information from Tom and Bruce your probably more informed than the rest of us.
I still think it would be important for Bruce to form a committee where we can discuss negotiation items and study past practice and past contracts so we're prepared when the merger occurs. As you said you've been here over 30 years and the same nonsense comes up each year. We need to start addressing the problems, so we can start moving forward.
I really don't want to feel afraid to speak out about the issues for fear that I'm going to give away our "Secret" strategy. All we're asking for is fair representation and a clear contract. Hopefully the State will finally have to address that instead of ducking it by keeping us stuck in a unit that doesn't want to negotiate for us.
Anything would be better than what we've had for the past 30 years under the prison guards.

Yours in solidarity; Rooney


Hey did Big Jim Dirico ever state those GOALS he was talking about?


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Post Re: Holy Shit !!! Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:19 pm
Guest
wow frank good to have you back on board...hope your feeling well...its nice to see old/new ideas...

everyone makes good points...but without goals and plans we again will go no where...and frank is right with the economy the way it is and this patterson(who was not voted in)making all the cuts...i think the door is shut...unless we take strong drastic measures...

just for info...frank what was the goal of the picketing? how long have the teachers in your district been getting the shaft...had it been for 6 years....and this strong union or group of teachers...how many people did it consist of? was it just your school or all the schools in the district?out of this group of people how many were seasoned vets? and just fo info...what school district is it? i know last i spoke to you years ago you went to newpaltz...and i remember you making jelly out of berry trees but for some reason i think you teach up state?

i think its ok for the state to read our boards...they assume we again will do nothing...they wont have anything prepared...the public will be up and arms...unsafe for the public?we will have the oppotunity to negotiate...

we risk our God given lives summer after summer...in the sun, the surf and even the ticks...with not even an ounce of respect from the state, the unions, the wso and the public!!!
the time of planning out our attack is over...the war has been going on...our guns are clean...time for a well calculated attack...one that draws blood...whether it is done in closed doors or out in the open...

goals must be made and a future time line would help...
example:
if by january 1st we dont have contract we go to plan A
if by february 1st we dont have contrcat we go to plan B
if by march 1st we dont have contract we go to plan C
if by april 1st we dont have contract we go to plan D
and by may 1st we dont have contract we unfortunately have to take drastic action...

santiago
Post Re: Holy Shit !!! Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 3:23 pm
Guest
nice to see Steve Levy giving a big thumbs up to the Forum, way to go Steve!
Post Re: Holy Shit !!! Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:15 pm
Guest
Santiago,

I teach here on Long Island-Bayport/Blue Point school district. It is five schools and about 500 teachers and other staff that were represented by the Union. We were out of contract for a little over a year, the vets to rookie breakdown-I don't know, but it seemed to me that they were pretty evenly distributed. We were without a contract for over a year. That was a few years back.

Some of the staff disagreed with the union leadership and thought that we got a bad deal in the end, some thought it was fair and some just wanted it to be over. Sounds very familiar to our concerns. Those with dissenting views had a forum to discuss thoughts. But that was done in meetings away from prying eyes. The picketing was done for a few reasons.

1. let the public know that negotiations were at a standstill and the other side was unwilling to talk anymore.

2. To show the solidarity of the teachers to do our job, but also to get what we thought was a fair contract after negotiating for a few years with no results.

3. To show the Board of education that we were not just going to take it with out some action on the unions part.

4. To give the union members who were not directly involved with the negotiations something to do-to contribute to the cause.

5. To do something to get some public support. The other side had sent out letters to the district claiming that we wanted unreasonable demands-even though both sides had agreed to not openly discuss negotiations in public until both sides had reviewed the latest documents. The other side broke the rules. They thought that they would embarrass us. But it back fired on them because we just continued to do our jobs in a very professional manner and then picketed with signs that asked for a fair contract, a contract now, we also wore black shirts that said contract now on the back and our union on the front every Friday. And we wore contract now or together as one buttons every day.

The union leadership was not able to discuss certain things with the membership under mutual agreement with the other side. They broke that agreement and we acted, in solidarity and without affecting the students that we teach.

I agree that the current situation is not good, but I don't know what steps the union has or is taking. I did not work this summer and did not see Bruce or Tom very often. But if I had a question, I would ask them directly or send an e-mail. I would not publicly berate them on a website. If I have suggestions for action or what I would like to see done, I give them to my Beach rep or go to the BRA meeting to talk about it. I just don't see the point of this attacking online. I don't always agree with what the E-board does or has done-but I want to be treated like a professional, so I try to act like one.

I don't disagree with everything that you guys have said. But I would have said it in a different forum and been more inclined to find out as much as possible before I reacted. You might know more than I do at this point-I have been out of it since May-but I'm not sure if threats of job actions are the next step yet. I am going to try and get back into the swing of things and attend the next BRA meeting-I need to report on CPR/AED stuff anyway, so I will ask questions as to where are we now and what do we do next.

If things don't seem in order, I will say my peace at that meeting-or ask my Beach rep to voice my concerns . Just seems like the right way to go about it to me.
Post Re: Holy Shit !!! Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:00 pm
Guest
again frank nice on the info...and i dont belittle anyone on this site...you act as if i have some negative vibe...i dont...i only write what i know...and look for communication and verification of my facts...from members of the corps...i tried being professional but after you get shit on it goes out the window...

you were on the board in the late 90s...you know up close that members were not out for the good of the corps...black t shirts were mentioned, arm bands...hell i even made a tshirt...lots of things get mentioned but none are taking seriously...being out for a summer is an excuse to not know whats going on...you know this is a many year fight...

let me fill you in...NOTHING...from the day you were infected by the tick...not one thing has changed...improved...no group action...nada...

you will see go to the meeting...ask your questions...nothing will be done...tell your ss...good luck...the only way you get answers is writing on this forum and the answers are coming from hearsay? not from the top...our leaders...

its good to have you on board and with your experience and years im sure it will only help the cause...
santiago
Post Re: Holy Shit !!! Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:41 am
Guest
Guys;
I just placed calls to our president Tom Donovan and our NYSUT liason Bruce Mierowitz, we'll see if I get a call back.
The nice thing about this forum is anyone can post and it's not just anonymous rants. You can rant, you can post information, you can post your opinion or as they used to say about the old Bucket and Bouy post "Your Editorial comments."
Some of us have the courage to post under our real names, and there are others using aliases. I hear that Joe Scalise and Steve Agostinacchio are monitering the forum. If they are they are doing it under Aliases, but that's their perogitive.
Your views lose some of their credibility if your afraid to stand behind them in person by using your real name. Alot of people are viewing the posts so I guess the interest to be informed is out there. And this UNION section is password protected for only registered users, but I guess there are still people feeling a little paranoid of MOLES.
I don't claim to have the answers, but I am willing to search and find them. If we're willing to share our ideas I think we'll have a better chance of finding a solution that's good for all of us.
Maintaining a BATTLE mentality, and spreading fear and paranoia isn't going to help anyone. I'm willing to listen to everyones opinions, Bob Hirten, Big Jim Dirico, Pete Groaner, Stu Kaplin, Santiago, Frank Salino, Steve Levy, or Joe Scalise.

Do we deserve a raise or are we fairly compensated?

Do we deserve a contract or should we stick with the old Labor - Management meeting minutes?

Do we stay with NYSCOPBA or do we get placed with NYSUT/UUP?

We've come a long way in the past 3 years, and I think the website and forum have done alot to help open the lines of communication.

Do you remember the big meeting at Mulcahey's with Bob Lenti and Roy Lester taking names and numbers and answering questions?

They had promised open communication then, and it took close to 3 years before Roy released our Union records, and he refused to release our "Jones Beach Lifeguard Corps, Inc.".

He still owns that corporation that he set up for us? Maybe it has something to do with the jammer lawsuit?

At least now every member of the Jones Beach Lifeguard Corps has a forum where they can express their ideas, and we also have an unbiased newsletter that comes out on a regular basis.

We've come a long way Baby!
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