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Jones Beach Lifeguard Corps
Speed suits?
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Post Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 7:41 pm
Lifer
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Frank,
I appreciate your input on the issue. If in fact the Executive Board had secured the right to use these speed suits at this meeting with the state I should hope they have it in writing. Otherwise, this is just the state claiming we can't use them and the corp. claiming we can. As with everything in life if it isn't in writing no one can prove the claims you just made. You want the Corp. to support the Executive Board on this issue and claim that the state is unilaterally taking away something that was negotiated. Prove that it was negotiated in writing. Otherwise it again appears that the Executive Board is working for their own agenda and further damaging our poor relationship with the state. You are right. I love this job and plan on doing this for a while.
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Post Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:46 pm
Guest
Its nice to see that there are other lifeguards that don't follow the EB without questioning what they say. The truth is in the proof. Lets see it in writing.
Post Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:52 pm
Guest
Bob;
Speaking of getting it in writing, Could you post the "famous" letter that you got allowing you to return to the Lifeguard Corps after your stint in the Water Safety Office? Also I was putting together a history of the lifeguard Corps and was wondering if you had the results of the testing conducted in July of 1971 on the 150 replacement lifeguards, where I think only 7-8 passed?
Regards; James Rooney

ps- I think this only reinforces how badly we need a collective bargaining agreement, and how important it is in keeping accurate Union records. Let's get in in writing Executive Board, and keep copies for all the Union members to see. Roy Lester maybe you have a copy of the Speed Suit negotiations?
Post Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:49 pm
Guest
Jim- I have tried to scan the letter and I am unable to post it in the forum on this website. I will happily bring it to the next shop steward meeting and it will be available for all to read. Any tips on how to get a scanned file into this forum would be appreciated.
Yours Truly,
Lt. Bob Hirten
Post Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:22 am
Guest
Bob;
Bring it to the meeting on the 18th, or you could also send it to Cary Epstein at <http://www.jblifeguard.org> to be posted in the official JBLC files. Cary's site is a members only site, and he can be reached at <cary@jblifgeguard.org>.
Post Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:08 pm
Lifer
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Frank,
I am waiting for your reply. You claim the use of these speed suits was negotiated. Is it in writing? I would like proof that this was negotiatied in order to support your claim that the state is unilaterally changing anything. As far as the Bob Hirten letter is concerned I think we need to stay focused on issues that really concern the corp. Debates about such a letter again highlight how personal agenda's plague this union. There are some real issues facing us this year.
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Post Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:02 pm
Guest
LIFER,
It was agreed to in front of approximatley 15 people. The State never puts anything in writing unless they are forced to, but most times, follow what they agree to.

To get better insight as to why the Water safety Office and The State O f New York avoid written agreements, ask Mr. Hirten. He was on that side of the table for a while and might give you a better idea as to why agreed upon things are rarely written. It might have something to do with the parent union and the contract. Both Council 82 and NYSCOPBA have a statement that says we must meet, discuss and negotiate in good faith. Perhaps the State feels that is all they are required to do, so that is all that they do. Or perhaps it is so that they can make unilateral and arbitraey changes to target those that they find bothersome. A better bargaining unit agreement would take care of this problem, but again the State fights us on our quest to gain better representation.

As far as our present agreement, I would take good faith to mean with honesty and integrity. But during my time with the executive board, the States version of good faith often meant something else. I was able to produce meeting minutes (unofficial-because the state will not recognize them as official) to remind them of previously agreed to items that were changed without negitiations and most of the time the state agreed to honor the original agreed upon terms. We lost sometimes and we won sometimes. But I would think it would be better for both sides if official written terms were signed at these meetings.

Once more i would urge you to ask Mr. Hirten why the WSO and The State prefer no written agreements unless forced by legal action. And those legal actions cost the JBLC and the State time ( lots and lots of time) and money. I would also suggest that you ask the State of New York and The Water Safety Office these same questions.

WHY NO WRITTEN AGREEMENTS OR AT LEAST OFFICIAL MEETING MINUTES ?

IF WE ARE NEGOTIATING IN GOOD FAITH AND DISCUSSING THE AGENDA IN AN OPEN FORUM-WHY NOT MAKE IT OFFICIAL?

When I was a part of the executive board, we always asked those questions and were always told that we can't and that decision comes from Albany. No further explaination was ever provided and further questions about who we should contatct to get official meeting minutes instituted were always put off by the other side of the table.

By the way LIFER-Who are you? and why do you hide your identity on these postings?

Fat and Happy ( and easliy identified )
Post Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:39 pm
Guest
Lifer;
Learning how to get it in writing is the issue, I think if anything we should see how Bob Hirten has achieved this in the past, and move toward "getting it in writing" for the future. This shows how important a written collective bargaining agreement is.
Are you for or against the speed suits? Do you agree with what Frank Salino outlined as the negotiated items, or would you like to throw it all away as it's not in writing? Where are Bob Lenti and Roy Lester on this issue?
Maybe Lifer can show up at the April 18th Shop Stewards meeting and identify himself? Last edited by Guest on Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Post Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:41 pm
Lifer
Offline
Frank,
So in other words there is no proof of any agreement that was made between the state and executive board. That is all I wanted to hear. According to you this discussion took place about 3 years ago. If you asked everyone at that meeting what happened their recollection would be slightly different as to what was agreed upon. I am not one who just falls into line because an executive board that has been motivated by personal agendas in the past says to. I asked for some proof and basically there isn't any. For all I know the executive board could be the ones who are wrong on this matter. Maybe before we further damage our relationship with the state over a speed suit that benefits a handful of members we should put our efforts into some more basic and fundamental issues that that can benefit every member...like obtaining the ability to get things in writing, or getting our executive board recognized by the state. These are the type of issues that truely are important and need to be addressed. This may help prevent future confusion over negotiated issues. Maybe the current EB has to many personal issues with the state and WSO which compromises their ability to negotiate efficiently. As with any elected group their sole job is to obtain results. When a member of congress fails to obtain what is required by his or her constituents he is voted out. Change can be a good thing.
As to why I didn't use my real name...it should be obvious. Anyone in our union who speaks out against the EB or the establishment is basically criticized as either not knowing enough about the issues or being anti-union. The last thing our Corp has is an environment that fosters open dialogue. This is a place where personal grudges span decades. These forums should provide enough evidence for this. It shouldn't matter who I am. It shouldn't matter who in our Corp is saying something. Everyones opinion should count. Maybe when that actually happens I will let you know who I am. As for now I just am trying to point out some problems. I don't agree with the EB on this speed suit issue. If there was some evidence to support their side I would be right there with you Frank. I would love for some EB members to be involved in this discussion.
Lifer
Who is watching the watchmen….I am
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Post Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:54 pm
Guest
If the state decides on its' own what can or can not be used on the re-hire exam, than what is to stop the state from banning goggles or bathing caps during the next re-hire test? As far as I know most lifeguards do not wear goggles or bathing caps on the stand, yet the vast majority do use at least goggles for the re-hire. And if in fact this is a case of our word against the word of the state in the issue of the speed suits, than why should we be the ones to give in?
As history has shown us, a policy of appeasement only allows the aggresors to continue to do as they wish, with the state being the aggressors in this case. If the corps gives in on this one issue, what is to stop the state from making other changes that are not in writing. It may be speed suits today and starting blocks and goggles tomorrow. Personally, I do not wear a speed suit, but as far as I know there is nothing in writing that prohibits me from doing so, only the states un-negotiated directive.
Post Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:58 am
Guest
should I wear a fastskin just to make a point??

whats the deal? I try to go as fast as I can every year. I bet no one would say anything if there were 8 people trying to going 50. at the rehire, but there is an outcry when there are people going 1:18. I have been all over to USLA nationals, and lifeguards across the country always are amazed at the rediculous bullshit we have to put up with. Every lifeguard agency in the country runs themselves, except JBLC. Every LG agency in the country is viewed as an asset to the public and are treated as such. Every LG agency in the country except us recived payment to represent their LG Hometown at regional and national events. We have such a large group of talented athletes of all ages, but not everyone can afford to miss work, fly out, get a hotel, eat, pay for entry fee, ect.

PS - Most lifeguard agencies across the country, including Town of Hempstead and Long Beach I believe but not sure, don't even have a "rehire" test.
Post Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:02 am
Guest
I guess I am in trouble because, I have no issued suits that are the right size...I was issued wrong sizes and traveled to the store house and was told to come back several times......
Post Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 2:18 pm
Guest
What size are you? I might have a new suit lying around. I'm a 38 waist.
Post Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:58 pm
Guest
I still like Vertuccio's solution: we should just shave down and wear the wool suits...
Post Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 7:53 pm
Guest
I agree with all of the above but let's take a look at the real issues. First and foremost, do we really need goggles, caps or a speed enhancement suit to pass this test? If we do, then are we really the best of the best? No, we would need props to be the best. And that's not what we're about. In my opinion, whether you have 15 years, 20 years or 50 years.....you still should pass the test and be able to jump off the stand and run a rescue without any enhancement devices to get you there. Let's look at the real issues.....five years without a raise, an executive board that has its own agenda and has alienated the State, and lifeguards who are intimidated by older and senior guards who will not allow them to express their opinion without being ostracized. Let's get past these superficial issues and focus on positive energy and a new direction.
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